FANDOM


  • Well, I don't know what are generally accepted theories about Alice's psychopathicity. Here are my conclusions.


    OK, for first let's assume that Wonderland is something like a video game, a virtual reality or a lucid dream. Here, we can do all we want, disregarding consequences (but Alice would face SERIOUS consequences when dying in Wonderland, like being in catatonia for the rest of her life). Now we need to remind ourselves, how nice it was to rip and tear enemies in games like Doom (espiecially with Brutal Doom mod ^ ^) or God of War. It's rather hard to find someone, who saddened after serving fatality to random monster in GoW. Now let's imagine that we can do all of that in mentioned virtual reality created in our mind (lucid dream for example). Who would have resisted using such opportunity? Not many people for sure.

    When it comes to Alice, it's clearly shown that she enjoys killing demonic rabble. HOWEVER it should be noted, that - unlike people playing video games - she's not doing this for fun. As we know, she was somewhat forced to use brutal force in Wonderland. In the first game, defeating Queen of Hearts was the only way for Alice to cure herself from mental disease (which packed her into Rutledge Asylum for almost ten years). In the second game, her "butcher strolls" through Wonderland led her to the shocking truth about Bumby (he killed Alice's whole family, wanted to erase her memory and was changing children into prostitutes, previously erasing their personality) and to gather up to push the guy into railway.

    It's worth noticing, that despite the massacre Alice was doing in Wonderland, in real world she's a (almost) normal young woman. She doesn't look like she want to kill some random person, just like sane player won't be shooting people after playing Doom.

    Alice didn't even wanted to kill Bumby. She wanted to pack him in a jail instead. Only when the bastard informed her about the misery of her situation, she finally gathered up to bring justice herself... in the least violent way (sort of).


    So that's all.

      Loading editor
    • American McGee stated that Londerland represents Alice "mastering" her reality, rendering it as "a better place" where she can use her "abilities". But there's no hint all along the game about any sort of magic or overlapping symbolism taking place: whenever London gets funny is because Alice effectively started to hallucinate. Alice simply had to assume her Wonderland persona in the real world to dare killing Bumby (what shocked him was just her determined expression), which detonated an endless hallucination.

      In the end, Alice recovered her memories (guilt included) and restored Wonderland. But she snapped alright. That's the aesop: one can't endure reality unless becoming exactly as psychotic as necessary.

        Loading editor
    • 189.146.207.151 wrote:

      Alice simply had to assume her Wonderland persona in the real world to dare killing Bumby

      Of course. That's basically what I had on mind writing her "butcher strolls" through Wonderland led her to the shocking truth about Bumby and to gather up to push the guy into railway.

      189.146.207.151 wrote:

      what shocked him was just her determined expression

      And I think the same. Just can't imagine Alice having "clothes materialisation" and "hair growth boost" ability. But as nothing is exactly confirmed, we don't know for sure.

      189.146.207.151 wrote:

      which detonated an endless hallucination.

      Hmm... I don't think it'll be endless. If Alice really mastered both domains, she should be able to control (switch) this "view mode". I also think that Londerland is symbolic manifestation of Alice's new perspective on the world/life. Everything's bright and colorful, while in fact it's probably middle of night (entering Moorgate Station).

      189.146.207.151 wrote:

      In the end, Alice recovered her memories (guilt included)

      Guilt included? I don't think so (however it's just my opinion). I think that after realising the whole truth, avenging her family and realising that in fact she was even more powerless to save her family than she thought before (seven Y/O girl can do literally nothing against an adult man), she finally dealt with her past. I think that otherwise Londerland wouldn't be so beautiful.

      189.146.207.151 wrote:

      one can't endure reality unless becoming exactly as psychotic as necessary.

      But we still don't know what influence Londerland has on Alice's behavior. Moreover, I think she can't be psychotic anymore. My point is that if she wants to visit another person's mind (in Otherlands), she must firstly have her own sanity in one piece.


      Alright. It was nice you wrote something here (I almost forgot about this thread), but I still don't know what it has to do with the main topic: Alice's alleged psychopathicity. I don't know what's your look on my opinion and if you agree with it or not.

        Loading editor
    • TL;DR: I don't think Alice is a psychopath, not at all, but I'm certain she is (and remains) psychotic. I wanted to stress that difference (BTW psycopaths don't neccesaly harm others out of pleasure seeking, but out of moral numbness).

      LONG ANSWER:

      Londerland looks pretty most likely because Wonderland does again, after saving it from the Hell Train (i.e. Bumby's attempt to erase Wonderland from Alice's memory, which prevented her from going fully amnesiac under his convenient hypnosis treatment).

      The guilt I'm talking about is indeed about choosing to ignore/forget her allowing Bumby to hurt others, from Lizzie's rape and murder to the other kids' brainwash into sex toys. As told by the Caterpillar, Alice is guilty of that alright (disregard her age) and she must now cope with it; she started to do it by snatching the keys of Lizzy's room and punishing Bumby in the children's name (though she may have to cope now too, at an ethical -not moral- level, with being a murderer).

      I think the hallucination turned likely permanent/forceful mainly for two reasons:

      1. Chesire's cat saying that they (wonderlanders) once again cannot go back home (i.e. Alice's mind alone: they still have to forcefuly share Alice's reality for a while).

      2. The scene about Alice's waking up in blue dress with the rabbit in her room. The timeline there is broken so, although it is certain that the awakening happened after the dreamed/hallucinated final battle with the Doll Maker, there's still some room for interpretation:

      i) If the awakening happened before Bumby's confrontation, that means Alice woke up still hallucinating herself as empowered (though not her sorroundings as embelished) and then the hallucination switched off and on through the murder; if that's the case, the hallucination is indeed fluctuating (hopefully on Alice's command but I find that unlikely; it could be her emotional state, rather than her will, which turns them on and off).

      ii) If the hallucination happened after Bumby's confrontation (which would have been then a flashback, like the straight jacket sequence), that might mean Alice is hallucinating herself as her Wonderland persona long after the storm ended and even right at waking up, that is, out of her control (which sounds much more likely since that's how hallucinations work).

      In any case, my insistence with Londerland being hallucinogenic and not merely symbolic (thus Alice being really psychotic) springs simply from how the entire game (the two games, in fact) operated all the way until then; the symbolic meaning of that outcome would happen in our eyes, as viewers, with the (meta)aesop I mentioned. If the developers really started to use such fantastic images as mere symbols at that point, well, that would be quite inconsistent and misleading indeed (i.e. they would have mindfucked us alright). Maybe the third game will bring definitive answers to this, maybe not.

        Loading editor
    • 189.146.207.151 wrote:
      The guilt I'm talking about is indeed about choosing to ignore/forget her allowing Bumby to hurt others, from Lizzie's rape and murder to the other kids' brainwash into sex toys.

      Yes, but I think that she kinda redeemed herself.
      - family (Lizzie) case: she's not ignoring the truth anymore, she now remembers everything. She can't do anything more about this.
      - children case: although she turned a blind eye to their harm, she (at last) saved a lot of them from their minds and lifes being destroyed by Bumby's "business".

      189.146.207.151 wrote:
      though she may have to cope now too, at an ethical -not moral- level, with being a murderer

      Well, I don't think that Alice is an ordinary murderer. Is a soldier a murderer when he kills another soldiers for freedom of his country (for example)? Then, is Alice a murderer, when she kills Bumby for saving hell-knows-how-many innocent children from being brainwashed and becoming mindless sex slaves? Alice didn't kill him because so was her whim. She did it because there was literally no other way.

      189.146.207.151 wrote:
      1. Chesire's cat saying that they (wonderlanders) once again cannot go back home (i.e. Alice's mind alone: they still have to forcefuly share Alice's reality for a while).

      Seems like pretty accurate interpretation.

      189.146.207.151 wrote:
      2. The scene about Alice's waking up in blue dress with the rabbit in her room. The timeline there is broken so, although it is certain that the awakening happened after the dreamed/hallucinated final battle with the Doll Maker, there's still some room for interpretation:

      i) If the awakening happened before Bumby's confrontation, that means Alice woke up still hallucinating herself as empowered (though not her sorroundings as embelished) and then the hallucination switched off and on through the murder; if that's the case, the hallucination is indeed fluctuating (hopefully on Alice's command but I find that unlikely; it could be her emotional state, rather than her will, which turns them on and off).

      ii) If the hallucination happened after Bumby's confrontation (which would have been then a flashback, like the straight jacket sequence), that might mean Alice is hallucinating herself as her Wonderland persona long after the storm ended and even right at waking up, that is, out of her control (which sounds much more likely since that's how hallucinations work).

      Your interpretation of this scene almost convinced me. It's consistent and clear, but I still can't agree that the "Londerland hallucination" is permanent.

      It's more than obvious that in later parts of the story (shown rather in the third game, as - like American McGee said himself - animated series will only be a sneak peek to minds, which Alice'll visit in the game) she must finally snap out of this hallucination. How can one enter another person's mind, while still being psychotic (I brought this up in previous post too)? Not to mention that Alice will be trying to save London from an evil organisation (or singular villain) as well. In my opinion such efforts require fully efficient mind and strong grip on reality.

      189.146.207.151 wrote:
      In any case, my insistence with Londerland being hallucinogenic and not merely symbolic (thus Alice being really psychotic) springs simply from how the entire game (the two games, in fact) operated all the way until then; the symbolic meaning of that outcome would happen in our eyes, as viewers, with the (meta)aesop I mentioned. If the developers really started to use such fantastic images as mere symbols at that point, well, that would be quite inconsistent and misleading indeed (i.e. they would have mindfucked us alright). Maybe the third game will bring definitive answers to this, maybe not.

      Well, I don't think that Alice doesn't see all of this, but it doesn't exclude Londerland being a symbol.

      American McGee wrote:
      Londerland is a visual and symbolic representation of Alice's merging of the psychological and real world.

      From http://www.americanmcgee.com/forum/index.php?topic=3630.0

      American McGee wrote:
      But the point is that she's now a fully-realized and whole person.

      From http://www.americanmcgee.com/forum/index.php?topic=3656.0

        Loading editor
    • i agree

        Loading editor
    • I dont think sheis either.I met a psychopath and he was totally different.

        Loading editor
    • Well I don't think she's a PSYCHOPATH, but I do think thst like the wikia says, "We're all a little mad here..."

        Loading editor
    • A little...^^

        Loading editor
    • Glad that someone else realizes and agrees with me. There are far too many fanart depecting her as some sort of yandere psychotic killer, when in reality (well, you know what I mean...!), all she really "murders" are a bunch of hostile creatures poisoning her precious dream.

      I actually find her to be rather sweet.

        Loading editor
    • Broken an mentally unstable? She sure is. A little morbib? Maybe. But she's never shown any signs of being a Psychopath.

        Loading editor
    • Alice is not psychopathic. She's killing the demons and monsters in her mind in Wonderland, not other people in reality/London.

      Bumby is the only exception, because he's a jerkass responsible for making orphans and unfortunate children suffer.

        Loading editor
    • Reading this made me smile with joy

      -Alice & Jack the Ripper, Lycan Maid and Butler of the Tsukinami House

        Loading editor
    • She is, however, a troll who wants us to suffer, waiting for Otherlands.

        Loading editor
    • Nah, that's just American McGee. =D

        Loading editor
    • Doesn't he know I suck at patience? D=

        Loading editor
    • A FANDOM user
        Loading editor
Give Kudos to this message
You've given this message Kudos!
See who gave Kudos to this message